In reference to the Har Hebron part of my blog post entitled Say What!?!, David Mark commented:
Wow. Thank you for posting about me without even checking the facts. What you did here is basic Motzei Shem Ra and since you did not ask me for clarification it is a bad thing to accuse another Jew of this before Elul. Perhaps you should email me and ask who he is and what he does. First of all he has left the folds of Christianity. House of Jacob has no connection the same name in America. Putting the name in Google does not constitute real research. Africa Israel Initiative unfortunately has an overt Christian underpinning and Sam (Shmuel) finding himself in an awkward position for leaving Christianity is trying to find a way to teach those in the organization the truth. So once again I implore to either change the post, take it down, or apologize a poorly researched blog post. Either way you are now over a serious averot just before Yom Hadin.First of all, let me just say that I do not go looking for these things. People send them to me and ask for my input. If I find it is part of a negative trend, I will address it in a blogpost or a series of blogposts. If it concerns something that has already been published in the public sphere, then it needs to be addressed publicly and not privately where people can then say - this is all confidential and cannot be shared publicly.
Second, I will say that one cannot "research" what is not publicly available. In that case, one must rely on contacting the people involved and questioning them. In the aforementioned blog post, I gave evidence of my good faith attempt to contact the source of the story featured on the Har Hebron Facebook page and promised to inform the readers of the outcome.
Because of the amount of information that needs to be given over, this will run to more than one blog post. Today, it will suffice to provide the response to my initial queries. Tomorrow, iy"H, I will reply point by point.
To remind you, the text of the Facebook post says the following:
Shmuel "Sam" Gordan [should be spelled Gordon] the head of the House of Jacob and VP of the Africa Israel Initiative signs a partnership agreement with Yochai Damri head of Har Hebron and David Mark the founder of Israel Africa Hub and coordinator for Africa outreach for Har Hebron for the purpose of building a center for Israel Africa relations in Har Hebron.Here are some of the responses I received to my questions:
TD: What is this "House of Jacob" that he [Gordon] heads in Africa?
HH: House of Jacob is this former Pastor's way of trying to teach former Christians the truth. He unfortunately has lost most of his congregation over his speaking of the Jews being right. He should be supported... not admonished.
DM: I brought him to big enough Rabbis who grilled him. He is a former pastor.
DM: There are so many more groups and activists for you to focus on and you are picking the one or two people that actually are not so involved with the issues you are working on.
DM: The agreement has nothing to do with the Christian organization [Africa-Israel Initiative]. It is with his Shabbat fellowships. That is trying to pry African Christians out of their avodah zarah.
~~~
TD: Who does this "agreement" obligate and to what?
HH: It is not legal. It is an expression of friendship. Please take the time to research carefully when you wrote blogposts.
TD: Why do you think I am asking you? And you still have much to answer for, so do not turn it around and attack the messenger. Perhaps if you had done the minimal research that I have done, you should have had second thoughts about such an undertaking. Do you see value in making even a sham of an agreement with those who boldly say they intend to be the center of Xianity for the world and export Xian values from Africa? What do you feel the Jews of Har Hebron have to gain from such an "agreement"?
HH: The agreement has nothing to do with the Christian organization. It is with his Shabbat fellowships. That is trying to pry African Christians out of their avodah zarah.
TD: Wait a minute. Are you saying that this "agreement" is not WITH this Africa-Israel Initiative? But, only with this one man and whatever other people he says he represents? And he is TODAY the "VP" or "a" VP for "Africa-Israel Initiative"?
TD: Can you get me a copy of the text of that "agreement" and tell me who precisely it addresses?
TD: Wrt that meeting with the rabbis, what language was used? Were interpreters present?
~~~
TD: If you would like to provide further information to set the record straight, I am happy to accommodate with space on my blog. There are a lot of questions, as you can well imagine. ... I'd really be interested in your side of it.
DM: ...People like Shmuel should be celebrated and encouraged. And those of us who work with people like him should be promoted.
From here on, it went to email so that certain sensitive information would remain "confidential".
(Part 2)
Excuse me, why should this David Mark feel that he needs to help these non-Jews to become whatever, hopefully, just Noahides. There is more to this, for sure, than meets the eye. These people aren't the only ones he's been courting. Never has there been this 'OUTREACH' to non Jews to turn to H'. That is NOT the business of the Jewish people. We need to do outreach only to our brothers and sisters who have gotten lost to assimilation and to return to 'our' roots, to H'. Chodesh Elul is a month of introspection and G-D bless Jews like Devash who know what it really means to be a 'Yehudi'. May all of the true Am Yisrael be blessed with a wonderful year that brings us the Geulah Shleimah and may every real Jew return to Torah, just as in the days of Chizkiyahu HaMelech. Amen!
ReplyDeleteBoruch
Actually Baruch there isn't. We have an obligation to teach the truth to non Jews that's it. Not everything is some sort of Christianity conspiracy. I am certainly not in that camp.
ReplyDeleteJews do not have any such "obligation". It does not appear as one of the 613 commandments on anyone's list - not Ramban,not Rambam, not Chofetz Chaim, not HaChinuch... They, the non-Jews, have an obligation to search out the truth for themselves. And I know from personal experience, that not one Jew is required to personally get involved in that process unless and until that non-Jew decides to convert.
DeleteBut, from what I have been able to gather, this involvement is not even about saving the non-Jews from Xianity. That was just an unlucky side effect to the economic opportunities you were trying to generate, right? Correct me if I'm wrong.
This whole series of blog posts does not single out Jews involved with Xians. It is about Jews being involved with non-Jews in general - of any stripe or persuasion and for any reason. "Involved" as in some kind of relationship. Whether it be business or friendship, it is forbidden.
Not correct on both points. You are engaging in public destruction. I asked you to remove or rescind the false implication you are creating and you are not. A simple apology would have been enough. I will have no choice but to name not clear to Jewish blogosphere that you have gone way overboard and strayed from.instead going after clearly problematic cases you are attacking me on an issue of philosophical disagreement. You have no right to do that to another Jew and to one whirl is not at all working with Christians. You are implying that I am. Also, yes I hold of Rebbe Nachman's teaching lesson 17 in the Lekutei Mohran on spreading knowledge of one G-d to the nations albeit carefully. No different than the Rebbe's campaign for 7 Mitvoth as.Rav Ginsburgh has its me to be involved with. Now as far as this meeting goes. I'm have my spiritual tasks and they coincided with Har Hebrons goals. I have no need to justify to you beyond that. I am a G-d fearing Jew who is not engaged in anything owe to what you imply and no talking to nonJews who have clearly stated their interest in growing close to the holy one is not forbidden.
DeleteYour blog post about me insinuates ibam involved with a Christian who seeks to harm Israel. That is wrong borderline libelous. Others have already written to me angered by your post. I would recommend coming down from your tree and remove my section.
DeleteI guess you couldn't find that reference in the Talmud to prove your claim that Jews are "obligated" to teach the non-Jews.
DeleteI don't understand where this "false implication" comes from. It was your own page which publicly stated that this man with whom you signed an "agreement" is VP of the Africa-Israel Initiative, a blatantly Xian organization. I asked for clarification. Where is the false implication?
David ben Eliyahu, I'd be grateful if you could provide me with the sources for "inter-religious dialogue" as I know none. Thank you!
Delete" If a news story is damaging to a person's reputation but is accurate in what it reports, it cannot be libelous. " P.E.
DeleteDear Dawid Ben Elyahu, it has been stated in your comment that you had been attacked on an issue of philosophical disagreement, therefore you are demanding an apology. However, 'phylosophical disagreement' could be understood,that you have a different ideas from the Dvorah's view,as for 'philosophy' , driven from the Greek world, defined as "the study of ideas about knowledge, truth, the nature and meaning of life, etc."(http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/philosophy). To your knowledge, Jewish court doesn't adhere to hypothetical idea unless it stated in Torah Law. More so, we are commanded not to go after our heart and eyes pursuing any ideas we think is a great one without checking the legal part of it. Don't forget how the city of Troy was tricked by Greeks, because they left there guards down. It's also always good to remember that free cheese you can find always in the mouse trap. Beside the point, the Lubavitch Rebbi was working to put Noanide Laws' ethics in the States public educational system,(at that time, the Ministry of Education was established and Lubavitch Rebbe tried to insert Noanide education into public schools curriculum), therefore was dealing with Government agencies for this matter. Nowhere, Lubavitch Rebbe called to influence non-Jews on personal level or to make any alliances with them even for good cause, especially in Eretz Israel. Our main task is to connect to every Jew and do Teshuva collectively. But if you still think,that your mission in life and that's a good idea to influence non-Jews in Eretz Israel, start from the Israel Misrat aHinich. Anyway, public Israeli schools contain maybe 20% Jewish students and the rest is other nations. So it would be helpful, that Noanide ethics would be studied by Russians, Arabs, Tailandies and many more. Hopefully,it will work both ways, that their Jewish counterparts will question themselves of why are we here in Noanide school and not in Yeshiva. Since it requires dealing with Israeli government officials that is where your potentials can flourish, however if you will continue to do it as private group, you will always be accused, and rightfully so, for bringing avoda Zara to our land.
DeleteChana
Thank you very much, Chana, for posting this info about the Rebbe. It is very helpful.
DeleteThank you very much, Chana, for posting this info about the Rebbe. It is very helpful.
DeleteAlso, why should there be so many of these foreign nationals living in our E. Y. and going to schools in Israel? That in itself is not allowed. The axis of those ER.E & Y are trying very hard at lightening speed to dismantle the Jewish nation and Torah. They, of course, will fail big time. This war is against G-D Almighty Himself!
ReplyDeleteraizy
You are welcome Dvorah, it just compels me to see that individuals using the name of a zadik to cover up their activities. Rebbe's campaign for 7 Mitvoth was done specifically to rise awareness in public and influence government officials to accept the Noanide ethics into public school curriculum. It was at some point successful and preliminary, Rebbe reached an agreement with Ministry of Education to have it in schools. He also suggested, that before school starts, each child should have a 'minute of silence' to think about a Creator, connect the purpose of life with the moral standards given to all the Nations, ect. But this initiative was shoot down by 2 Reform organization and Agudat Israel. They filed the appeal in the Supreme Court, that this agenda is crouching upon state and religion separation. After that the study of ethics was removed from the curriculum. That was the finale.
ReplyDeleteRebbe said, that if study of ethics will not be studied in public schools, then US could face another Holocaust on American soil, same as it happened in Germany. Since, in public schools they mainly study promiscuity, we can see that Holocaust is around the corner.
Chana