25 Menachem Av 5775
That's clear to me now. Although I never claimed to be a Zionist and never actually thought of myself as a Zionist. I'd never heard of Zionism before I made aliyah. I just knew it was a mitzvah from the Torah for a Jew to live in Eretz Yisrael.
When I arrived in Israel, I knew nothing about the government. (These were the days before internet.) I had heard it was a Jewish state so I expected it to operate according to Jewish (Torah) law. I also did not know there were non-Jewish citizens and members of Knesset. In the end it was irrelevant because it did not change the mitzvah in my mind. I soon learned that the Rambam said it's better to live in the Land of Israel in a city that is mostly made up of gentiles than to live in an all-Jewish city in the Diaspora. I believed him, although I never lived in a mostly Jewish city in the Diaspora or a non-Jewish city in Eretz Yisrael.
Just judging by what I've learned about Zionism in the last twenty years, I'd say today's JPost article, Right wing NGO: Lehava is an anti-Zionist organization, is correct and it's for the reasons outlined in this article that I make the statement that "a Torah-true Jew can't be a Zionist".
Matan Peleg, CEO of the so-called "right-wing" organization Im Tirtzu says:
..."only a right-wing extremist anti-Zionist such as Gopstein would say it is acceptable to burn churches. It is anti-Zionist to burn churches!"
"Zionist philosophy never spoke of a state built purely of Jews," said Peleg. " Zionist philosophy speaks of taking part in an inclusive state, of integrating those who want to take part and tie their fate to the State of Israel and the Jewish people and we see them as partners and brothers in every way," he added.
"In the State of Israel, Beduin trackers get up in the morning with the sun and patrol the border. That is Herzliyan Zionism- that is the Zionism of Im Tirtzu- that is true Zionism," he emphasized.
He's right. This is classic "Zionism". Ben Gurion begged the Arabs to remain in Israel when they were leaving by the droves. No one seems to have a problem with the term "Xian Zionist". That's because everyone acknowledges that support for the secular democratic State, its courts and its military and some expressed affinity for Israelis is enough to give the term legitimacy. Hashem and His Torah do not figure into it at all. In fact, service in the IDF is so revered by the Zionists that any goy who serves is considered to be on a higher level and more of a "brother" to the Zionist Jews than a Torah-true Jew.
The fusion of religion and Zionism like what we see with the national-religious party, now called "Jewish Home", demonstrates the fallacy of assuming these two can properly be mixed. They can't! This is just modern-day Hellenism and what our ancestors fought against. We celebrate their victory over the attempt to fuse Judaism and Greek culture with a holiday called Hanukah. This reverence, one might also call it idolization, of the military carries right over into the self-styled religious-zionist community. I believe this is why we see so many of their communities affected by IDF-led expulsion and destruction. Hashem is trying to wake them up to the truth.
As we continue to separate ourselves from all those things which belong to a mixture (Erev Rav) and bring ourselves to a state of purity (non-mixture) in preparation for receiving our righteous Mashiach and the kingdom he will rule, it's time to let go of this term and stop applying it to ourselves. Any good to be found in it is already encompassed by our holy Torah, but in purity!
From Neshama: Ok, so where are the Torah-True Jews that are not in Geula or Meahsharim? In Beit Shemesh? In the Settler communities? (some are very anti-Zionist) In .......................... (fill in the blank)?
ReplyDeleteWe can identify dati Leumi, and American Modern Orthodox, and Reform. But do we know if they are Zionistic?
As for me, I really never called myself a zionist, I'm more of an observer of Zionists and their ways. I'm still studying the life around me, after only 5 years here. I too came to the Land HaShem watches from the "beginning of the year to the year's end."
Then there are the ordinary Israelis, who go along with the State's version of society, but are they really Zionists? They were born here and know no other lifestyle; however, in their hearts may lurk hidden Torah Jews, afraid of repercussions from the leftists, waiting to come out and live a Torah lifestyle.
This is a culling of the masses waiting for Mashiach.
Neshama, there are Torah-true Jews everywhere and in all Orthodox groups. It's not realistic to think that we will be able to separate physically. People are separating by making up their minds to a certain direction of thought and this will casue a social separation. What happened in Gush Katif brought about a huge separation of formerly religious-Zionists mentally from this outlook. Many of them won't even vote anymore. Probably a lot of Torah Jews think they are Zionists because they believe in the Torah return to Zion that we prayed for since the Temple was destroyed, but that's not how the world defines it. It's just another pure idea that was stolen from us and turned into something evil to be used against us.
DeleteProbably a lot of Torah Jews think they are Zionists because they believe in the Torah return to Zion that we prayed for since the Temple was destroyed, but that's not how the world defines it. It's just another pure idea that was stolen from us and turned into something evil to be used against us.
DeleteWhy let the world define what we know to be the correct usage of the word?
I prefer to call myself a Zionist and not care how the world or the secular government defines it. My Zionism is not related to the actions of any particular government or any particular prime minister or any particular supreme kangaroo court ruling. My Zionism stems from the Torah. Any Zionism that stems from anywhere other than the Torah is anti-Torah and should be protested. I will not let any recent events shape my Zionism and I will not let neither the Hilonim nor the Satmar-types take it away from me.
I think anytime you add "-ism" to a word it becomes problematic. It makes it into a separate entity. Even the word Judaism to represent the Torah way of life has been applied to Conservative Judaism, Reform Judaism, 'Messianic' Judaism, Rabbinic Judaism...
DeleteI tried to make a case for Revolutionary Zionism being in the spirit of the return to Zion of our Torah and Sages, but now I see that no one is going to make this distinction, because the Zionism of the secular elite is what everyone else knows. And the self-styled "religious Zionists" have simply taken this secular model and dressed it in Jewish clothing, but it's disconnected from the Torah.
But then that's all just my opinion. I'm not attached to the word, but we have different histories.
And you have basis for your opinion - Rav Elchonon Wasserman ZT"L also considered all the "ism"s Avoda Zara.
DeleteNevertheless, I follow my rabbis who have placed Zionism within the confines of Judaism - not outside it. It is not for naught that Rav Ovadia Yosef ZT"L instructed the Shas party to join the WZO.
I'm with Rav Yaak on this one. In fact, a number of our words - Zion, Israel and so on - have been co-opted by the Erev Rav, and we should take them back and give them terms that tell the truth and better suit them. Once they start leaving the country for other parts when things get tough, it will be easier.
DeleteAfter all, isn't this what we're living through? The revelation of truth before G-d's kingdom comes?
Leaving when things get rough? They will be nicely situated in their fancy bunkers, way under ground WTSHTF, pushing the buttons of the electronic war, detonating from afar the nukes, the biological weapons they've been so diligently priding themselves on for decades, while the lowly, Amcha, the *workers*, the simple people without the *protexia* will grovel, as we've always done throughout the ages. The roads will be blocked, the skies and seas will be closed - there will be no in and no out. And it will be each man, woman and child on their own with Hashem Almighty and no one else can then help.
DeleteAll you need to do is watch this - and understand everything. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mep6yWD7gew
ReplyDeleteEnglish subtitles
A few months ago, someone went on the streets of Tel Aviv and made a little documentary. They read a quote by Theodore Herzl (I don't recall exactly what) asking various secular Jews to identify the person being quoted. Nearly without fail they guessed Hitler, y"sh. When told it was Herzl, they just couldn't believe it.
DeleteYep - that part is in the video - link posted above.
DeleteI thought I'd seen that video before.
DeleteThere has been a lot of brainwashing through the various channels done for years and years, tearing on heart-strings through the *war* efforts, KKL (plant a tree), The Joint, Hadassa, Bnei Brith, through the Jewish Agency, Wizo and many many other factions, and don't forget the fundraisers, the dinners, the raffles, all going to Israel - because it made the Jews in the diaspora feel better about *helping* but not having to settle the Land the themselves. So that was the bridge that kept the connection flowing - you/they were building the Land, building the Vision - the Dream, and Herzl was a hero and so were Golda, Moshe Dayan and all the others who made the Jew from the Shtetls proud to be Jews. Pre-Internet - you believed because that's what you were told. Why would you have reason to believe otherwise? Only now people can do their own homework and see the failures and the sheer evil in their ways. One only has to look at Herzl and the so-called *Enlightenment* movement that motivated Shomer Hatzair, Mapai and the other Labor Socialist groups. Back-stabbing, self-promoting at the expense of the so-called *lower class Sephardim*, the fear people lived in, if they were not members of the Histadrut, their very livelihoods would be at stake if they didn't carry the infamous *red cards*. And on and on and on - till this day where the Erev Rav have come into their own after the forerunners set down the fertile ground for them to guzzle. Everywhere you look there is destruction of the Land, the people are demoralized, the resources are being traded, the corruption machine keeps the fat good ol boys' club fraternity members wheeling and dealing in land and blood. Zionism has produced this atmosphere - the end result of almost 70 years of idolatry in the name of *Israel*.
ReplyDeleteThat's a tremendous comment. You put it in a nutshell.
DeleteAgree very much with NBAOR's and Devash's comments.
Delete"Guardian of Jerusalem" describes the deprivation that ravaged an already deprived population in the 1910s when the Tziyonim decided to take the Jerusalem soup kitchens and relief funds away from the frum communitiy, using the rallying cry of discrimination against the Sefardi population, as a way to justify their actions to both the Jewish population of Israel and the American donors, with whose money the mugging was enabled.
Page 363 (a 1918 account written by Rav Yechiel Michel Tuchachinski):
"....the Zionists took control of the distribution of huge sums of relief money sent by world Jewry...the Zionists...used the desperately needed funds to expand and improve their own institutions...all who were affiliated with their schools were supported comfortably with charity funds that were also intended for the rabbanim, students, and poor people of Orthodox Judaism who were literally starving to death....Statistics show that most of the deaths were caused by hunger and malnutrition...Death emptied entire buildings...and whole families perished...Of the 406 students remaining in the Eitz Chaim yeshivah in 1916, 155 were orphaned...I painstakingly researched the death statistics of 1916 and 1917 with the hope of moving the hearts of the members of the American Committee and the Joint Committee...but to no avail."
In Torah-true fashion, he pleaded with these committees not to discriminate against ANY group of Jews (meaning that he wasn't pleading for relief for chareidim only), "but to no avail."
He also includes the heart-breaking account of a family who starved to death, leaving a little daughter behind. Several days later, she was found dead near her parents' graves on Har Hazeitim.
But maybe you already know all this.
At the time of the establishment of the state, anti-Zionist activists asked the Brisker Rov, “When we speak to Jews about the state, should we stress the fact that the leaders of the state are wicked people whose whole purpose is to uproot Torah and cast Jews in a new mold, empty of any spark of Judaism? Or should we stress the serious prohibition of establishing any Jewish state at all before the coming of moshiach and the Sanhedrin in the hewn chamber?” He replied that they should stress the prohibition of establishing any Jewish state, lest anyone think that if the State were run according to the Torah and Shulchan Aruch it would be permitted to establish it.
ReplyDeleteSimilarly, he once said to Rabbi Amram Blau, “We must stress that the problem with the State is not just the chillul Shabbos and other aveiros that they do. For even if you would be the prime minister, it would be forbidden to establish the State.”
Rabbi Meir Soloveitchik quoted his father, "Even if they appointed the Chofetz Chaim himself as the leader of the state, it would be forbidden." (Uvdos Vehanhagos Leveis Brisk, v. 4 p. 196)
The problem is not just the zionist of old or the current political leaders of the medina. The state itself is treif. You cant kasher a pig by wrapping it in teffilin and tzitzis. It is still a pig and will remain treif no matter how you dress it up. Only the Moshiach can get us out of this ditch that we have fallen into. May he come soon.
Yisroel Tzion
However, it is still Eretz Yisrael and nothing and no one can change that. The Land is not treif nor will it ever be! With the advantage of hindsight, we can see by the blessings that Hashem has heaped upon it and the people who live in it, including even our enemies, that it was clearly His will. If the religious had come in the same numbers or greater starting with the GR"A's students, the Erev Rav couldn't have taken over as they did. Nature abhors a vacuum. When the door opened, that's what flooded in. It was a mistake of cosmic proportions to have waited then and it's the same kind of mistake to continue to wait today. It's always time to do a mitzvah. Even after the exiles some Jews remained in Eretz Yisrael and throughout the last 2000 years, there were always Jews who remained in Eretz Yisrael no matter what kind of government was in power.
DeleteDid you think Mashiach would come to an empty house? Anyway, the "state" and the Land are two entirely different things. When the sages said "even the air can make one wise", they demonstrated a knowledge of the qualty of kedushah that short-sighted people fail to recognize.
Indeed, Devash. That's tellin' 'im!
DeleteJust so the record is straight, I was not trying to tell anyone off. I'm just trying to point out, according to my own perception, what I believe to be the balance between two extremes.
DeleteDevash, you are slowly pulling towards the truth that Yisroel Tzion brought to our attention. Only, you are wording it very differently. The Brisker Rav and the Satmar-types (I quote Yaak) had the same love for the land, and know that its air is the purest, holiest.....etc.... Living on the holy soil is not a contradiction to 'not occupying the land'. We just need to finally differentiate between church and state, in the State of Israel, especially. We were never allowed to mix the two, before Moshiach redeems us. It WAS done, and THIS is the very unfortunate outcome.
ReplyDeleteWhat came about, as you said, NEEDED to happen. Obviously, if that's what Hashem brought about. But, we should've never been the ones to give a helping hand to the wicked. And, alas, this has been done by a huge segment of the Religious Zionists over the past 70 years. I hope that many start seeing the truth that you are seeing.
Sarah G K
Sarah G K, you seem to be forgetting a very important fact. The GR"A's students initiated the return to Zion in accordance with their teacher's instructions. The evil came and attached itself to this core pure and holy effort. Otherwise it would NOT have met with success.
DeleteThis "hands-off" attitude based on the evil represented by the regime that took power from it is just a convenient excuse that many religious people use to avoid their obligation to Hashem and their people while patting themselves on the back for doing so.
You know how I know that's true? Because it doesn't seem to bother them one whit that the government they live under in foreign lands is even worse than what is found in Eretz Yisrael! Or that those governments which they are supporting with all their tefillot and mitzvot and resources are trying to rip Eretz Yisrael from us and hand it to our enemies on a silver platter.
I don't see anyone throwing off tallit and tefillin because the Reform and the Xians are using them! That's no different from avoiding the mitzvah of yishuv Eretz Yisrael because evil Jews and Erev Rav took control of it. If anything, you all are incurring an even stricter judgment because with your added numbers here, we could have taken the power back to the side of kedushah!!
When the entire world became a mixture of good and evil with the first sin, why would you expect anything different in Eretz Yisrael until that sin is corrected? The only thing we have the power to do until that time comes is to weight it towards good or towards evil and weighting it towards good requires more numbers of good Jews. That's where you come in.
Any Jew who does not heed this call in these final moments will stand ashamed and regretful when the yetzer hara finally lets him go.
Your above statement would be correct if you don't consider Eretz Yisrael to be galus as well. The Moshiach has not brought us back, the Shekinah has not returned to Eretz Yisroel and we are still in galus. If individuals or groups of Jews choose/chose to go up and live in Eretz Yisrael peacefully (allowed) or forcibly (not allowed), this in no way removes us from our current state of galus. Until the Moshiach comes, a Jew in Jerusalem is just as much in galus as a Jew in New York. It goes without saying that living in Eretz Yisrael affords a Jew certain benefits as opposed to living in other locations. Doing so fulfills an optional Mitzvah and an aspect of the Shekinah still remains, and this can be felt palpably.You have access to the Kever HaTzaddikim, more Torah, etc. There are "negatives' as well. We have to be more scrupulous regarding the additional Mitzvot related to the land that we were otherwise not accustomed to keeping. It is more dangerous to live in Eretz Yisrael than in any other country, regardless of what israeli government ministers like tell you after any act of antisemitism in other countries. Statistically, more Jews have been murdered in Eretz Yisrael since 1948 than all other countries combined. Having said that, the whole world is a dangerous place for a Jew. But one of the benefits of our galus has been to spread us around. This dispersion, while not ideal, afforded us some security by the mere fact of geographic displacement. You are correct, every center of galus eventually turns against us and America will be no different. But until a Navi or the Moshiach gives us a direct command to come to Eretz Yisrael, we remain in galus wherever that may be and any suggestion that residing in Eretz Yisrael during galus is safer than any other country is pure speculation. May HaShem protect us all.
DeleteYisroel Tzion
There is physical exile and there is mental exile. Today, this is a choice. Some of the Jews who left the physical exile brought the mental exile with them. It can be left behind as well. All that remains is for us to fulfill the Torah mandate to conquer the land and drive out the enemy. It was delivered to us by the greatest navi that ever lived.
DeleteSee the first 3 P'sukim of Perek 12 in Parshas RiAy
ReplyDeleteAinOdMilvado
1 These are the laws and rules that you must carefully observe in the land that the Lord, God of your fathers, is giving you to possess, as long as you live on earth.
Delete2 You must destroy all the sites at which the nations you are to dispossess worshiped their gods, whether on lofty mountains and on hills or under any luxuriant tree. 3 Tear down their altars, smash their pillars, put their sacred posts to the fire, and cut down the images of their gods, obliterating their name from that site.
...as long as you live on earth.
The Rif, the Rosh, the Tur and the Shulchan Aruch do not incorporate these statements into their codes. These authorities only codify halacha that applies nowadays, and that is why these are omitted. Only a Navi or a King could re-institute these. Wait for Moshiach.
DeleteYisroel Tzion
Because it's not something for individuals to do. A Torah government has to do it on behalf of the entire nation. That's why Rabbi Kahane was politically involved. He hoped to build a Torah party that would grow in power and take the leadership by popular vote. He had a lot of faith in Am Yisrael to do the right thing.
ReplyDeleteBut when they banned Kach as racist, the current regime proved that there was no real democracy. If your vote is nullified, the only recourse for changing the government is revolution. Either that or suffer oppression which is where we're at today. Until now, I don't think anyone could have forseen just how outnumbered we really are by the Erev Rav.
Mashiach will bring the revolution. But, it won't be violent. It will be peaceful in that Hashem will cause the ruling regime to collapse and Mashiach will simply pick up the reins that they have dropped.
If we'd had the numbers and a willingness of the people to demand their rights, we could have taken this government and converted it to a Torah regime. Kach was set to take at least 10 mandates. When it was outlawed one month before the election, all those thousands of people who had just been politically disenfranchised should have gone into the streets, but nobody did. Slave mentality. They couldn't think like free men. So, it waits for the next generation.
Excellent comments Dvash (7:50 am) and 11:41 am. The naysayers always have an excuse and bring up from the Torah what is in their interests and conveniently forget the references that obligate yishuv HaAretz. BTW, to answer, I think Yisrael, the above commenter, I remember reading that on 2nd of August, 2011 which fell out on 2nd of Av that year, we reached Mincha Gedolah on the cosmic clock and that the Shcina was departing from the rest of the world and completely returning to Eretz Yisrael, thus taking away much protection from the nations. Maybe that is why there is so much chaos all over. But, it is true that it is better to live in Eretz HaKodesh surrounded by non-Jews then live in Jewish communities in the galut. We all know that the galut was brought into Israel on steroids (since Oslo), but we need to pray that all Jews come home and that will surely bring the downfall of the G-Dless leadership.
ReplyDeletemoishe
HaShem knows better than the Satmar Rav! G-d works thru history and current events. HKBH set into motion the return of Jews to Eretz Yisrael! What happens next is also in The pervue of the Creator of the world. Just keep your eyes, mind and heart open to HIS plans and not those of others. One should ONLY seek guidance from HaShem.
DeleteSarah, you should pay more attention to what the Torah itself says. Anyone from the last 70 years is no authority. No big rabbis (that I'm aware of) made any public call for Jews to leave Europe 70 years ago either.
Delete- a voice in the wilderness
I got here late in the game, and I'm glad I did. Yisroel Tzion has really done the job for me. Thank You.
ReplyDeleteDevash, I'm afraid this topic will never come to closure. This is not a new argument, and was initiated by greater men than us. I see from where you're coming, and where your beliefs stem from. However, I will say this once again. There were many, and 'literally most' of the big Gedolim, completely AGAINST your view! Yeshuv EY is NOT a mandatory mitzvah these days, as Yisroel Tzion has brought out. What was attempted from day one, by the religious zionists, will never materialize, for this is not Hashem's plan. The gathering of yidden to EY will be done by the true Moshiach, and not by us simple 'non eiruv rav's' strength. We will need to wait patiently. Politically, your ideas may sound good, but as I repeatedly say: 'NOT ONE gadol has given the slightest hint that all of the diaspora jews need to flock to EY. NOT ONE.'
I'm afraid we will never see eye to eye on this one.
Sarah G K
Look, I'm not trying to convince anyone of anything, least of all you, Sarah G K. Just giving equal time to the truth. That's all.
ReplyDeleteMitzvat Yishuv Eretz Yisrael
Most of us are holding onto Hashem with one hand while holding fast to our favorite idol in the other - whether it's some "-ism", or our "rebbeim", or the "goldeneh medinah" or the IDF, or the State, or whatever. At some point, each one of them is going to be destroyed forever. When the signs of destruction appear, we have to be prepared to let go or risk going down with it. Everybody has to make their choice.
ReplyDeleteWith the so-called religious-Zionist leadership now showing their true Erev Rav colors - independent conversion courts, support for administrative detention and even the death penalty for Jewish "terrorists", etc. - I think 'Zionism's' demise is approaching.
It's time to stop being a "religious-Zionist" and just be a Torah-Jew. In the end, it's the Torah that unites us.
I find it interesting that some out there will only accept what the autistics say when it's in line with what they want to believe in. However many times they've mentioned the piousness and truth behind all that I've mentioned before, when quoting Satmar/Brisk, it doesn't seem to faze anybody. Even so much as to put out the statements above, without fear! But, when they (the autistics) mention that EY will be a safer place, etc., it is held high on a banner.
ReplyDeleteYes! As frum jews we have taken guidance from the great ones, throughout the years. Otherwise, Torah is interpreted without the proper perspective. I will not try to impress on anybody the greatness of my Rabbis, mentors..... I'm being 'yelled' at without significant answers to any of my questions.
And BTW, 'wilderness'; if anyone in the last 70 years is no Torah authority, please do not ever bring up any of your zionist Rabbis either. And if so, Devash should remove the two references on the side of this site to the Brooklyn Rabbi and R Chaim Kanievsky. It holds no weight, in your opinion.
Well, I guess the truth will not be black on white, until Moshiach arrives. I will therefore try to keep the anti zionist comments to myself, and only use this site for the info that supports my true Torah values.
Hashem knows the truth.
Sarah G K
Sarah G K, "without significant answers to any of my questions"??? I went back to every comment. I don't see a question anywhere.
DeleteFor everyone else, another point I'd like to make clear is that aliyah is not exclusive to 'Zionism'. When the Zionist dream becomes the Zionist nightmare, those who made aliyah from this idealism usually give up and return to their country of origin (if they can). If you came for the mitzvah, there is never any question of giving up on it.
Sorry. Not 'questions'. 'Points'. Not one can be invalidated.
DeleteEverybody is just making lots of noise.
Sarah G K
Sarah G K, with regard to your query about the absence of the comment that you submitted previous to this one, I will not be publishing it. I held on to it in case you wrote to say it was a mistake, as I was certain you would, but instead you want to know why it isn't here. I re-read it and I still feel it has crossed a major red line, so I have deleted it.
DeleteAnd now, this post is closed to further comments.