Shavua Tov
"Let the buyer beware..."
Just because something (or someone) advertises itself as "Orthodox" doesn't mean it is!
The Birth Of A New Denomination, And Secession At The RCA...Since the early ‘90s, Orthodoxy has undergone a number of great shifts. Responding to a precipitous move to the right within Modern Orthodoxy, a plethora of institutions and organizations have emerged. These include the Jewish Orthodox Feminist Alliance (JOFA), Edah, YCT and YM, the Institute for Jewish Ideas and Ideals, and the International Rabbinic Fellowship (IRF). In Israel, too, Beit Morasha, Beit Hillel, Ne’emanei Torah Ve’Avodah and others were founded, and today women are being ordained (receiving semikha) from Yeshivat Maharat as well as Yeshivat Har’el..."Debate has surfaced over what this reassertion should be called. In the end, names are secondary to the substantive changes that have been put in place. Still, names matter as they are descriptive of what we are, our mission and values, taking into account the changes and challenges of the times..."With the advent of YCT, YM, the IRF, JOFA, and others, honest and respectful discussion is taking place concerning what terms should be used to describe these new phenomena in Orthodoxy."Some suggest the continued use of the term ‘Modern Orthodoxy.’ Modern Orthodoxy is a trademark term. Bearing in mind that it has been abandoned by RIETS and the RCA, a vacuum has been created. Why not fill that vacuum by reclaiming it and infusing it with new ideas and new perspectives while holding on to the term with which people feel comfortable?"Other, like myself, prefer a new term: ‘Open Orthodoxy.’Personally, I don't buy that "Open Orthodoxy" is another "movement" within Orthodoxy. In fact, let's just forget the term "Orthodox" altogether. Whatever "Judaism" you practice is either Torah Judaism or it's not. Just like there is only ONE Torah, there's only ONE legitimate, authoritative Torah Judaism and this ain't it.
What OO, Edah and the rest have done is removed the yoke of Torah from women and this is the worst thing you can do to them. The motivation: the Satan desires Chava.
ReplyDeleteYou are definitely right. Orthodoxy cannot be open, because it''s an oxymoron. Orthodox means strict adherence. This is a new scam by the leftists reform movement but worse, as it is being covered up to be part of 'orthodox', so it will be acceptable. Everyone knows already that the reform movement is a sham, so why not call it part of the 'new'' orthodoxy. Those 'rabbis' affiliated with this movement are nothing but part of the erev rav.
ReplyDeleteforgot again to sign off last anonymous - nili
ReplyDeleteThey must state what they are "Reform Orthodoxy.' Personally I do not like the term 'modern' orthodoxy. I don't really like any of the categories. I like the term Torah Judaism. So what do I call myself? I guess I am a Torah Jew. It's got a very nice ring to it.
ReplyDeleteEmunah
on a side point, how is it that r' chaim said moshiach is coming after shevit and nobody is covering it
ReplyDeletei can't think of bigger news
See HERE.
ReplyDeleteIs he just quoting a Gemara or saying this shiivis is the one?
ReplyDeleteSee the other comments over there.
Deletenobody answered definitively
Deletebut i get the feeling even if he is quoting the gemara that he knows something, i had the same feeling when he said it's a mitzvah to come to israel
when moshe returned to the jews after 40 years he gave signs that he was the redeemer
i'd have to think that the moshiach came to r chaim and some others to prove who he was
The Rav's words are difficult to make out, but at 1:50 he clearly says "motzaei shvi'it Ben David bah". It's interesting that this is his response to what seems to me to be a request for a brachah for some kind of project. Then they both say something I can't get except a repetition of the word shvi'it. Then Rav Chaim says "Hu yavo, hu yavo" - he will come.
Deletethe link to the above post is not going thru. can you provide the name of the writer of the above article in the Yated (NY) dot com paper.
ReplyDeleteI can't get to it either right now. Maybe they are updating the site. Check back later.
DeleteOne of the biggest surprises for me since my arrival in Israel is the Charedim. I have heard what I realize now is so much lashon hara about Israeli Charedim over the years. I was expecting violent lunatics. What I have found is some of the most refined and holy people that I have ever seen. They are thus far generally the humblest and kindest of Israelis, or whatever comprises that group they have the most contributors. And the women are the happiest of all the women I have known. They go through life with purpose, with appreciation. OO is unnecessary. It only pretends to care about women. To say that OO is out to help women is like saying that the haskala was out to help Jews. It tears away from them their very lifeline.
ReplyDeleteNeshama - Shlomo Riskin is the so-called "Open Orthodox" leader in Israel. He and his yeshivot are doing the same things. As for women and Torah. I have yet to see ONE woman who is publicly advocating for women's "rights" to lay tefillin, read from the Torah, be a rabbi, etc who has taken even the first step toward kedushah in covering her hair completely.
ReplyDeleteor to take on the OBLIGATIONS that men face - supporting a family, learning Torah every spare second, wearing tefillin every day no matter what, waking up for schacharis even on 2 hours sleep, not eating dinner until after maariv
Deletethe feminists see what seem like male privileges and don't understand the duties of being a man
"the feminists see what seem like male privileges and don't understand the duties of being a man"
DeleteMore like they want the privileges males are thought to have without the responsibilities, that as well as the desire on their part to invade any male space and convert it into their own.
The OO rabbis are misogynists. They don't like femininity possibly because many of them are so feminine. They want to turn women into men and men into women. Essentially what they are doing is tinkering with the briah. That's the problem with mixing Torah and college. It results in an awesome arrogance that the college professors don't even have.
ReplyDeleteMoriah, maybe you didn't realize the article you wanted to post is written by Avi Wiess. This blog won't be a platform for kefirah.
ReplyDeleteHello! Did i post something about Rabbi Riskin? If so, why wasn't it allowed. And BTW, if so, it had nothing to do with your jumping to conclusions about: "publicly advocating for women's "rights" to lay tefillin, read from the Torah, be a rabbi, etc who has taken even the first step toward kedushah in covering her hair completely" Did you read the article? If you read it I don't think you would have commented as you did, unless you only wanted to keep to your agenda and not allow free commenting. I don't understand you. Please clarify so we can straighten this out.
ReplyDeleteYou recommended that people read an article by Shlomo Riskin. It wasn't allowed because he is one of the major Erev Ravnikim and a spokesman for and a promoter of the very thing I'm writing against here. How can I let you recommend anything he says? The same goes for anything written by Avi Weiss et al. If I take the time to write a blog post to warn people against the heresy of these men and their followers, why would I then let you recommend other things that they've written. It doesn't make sense.
DeleteYou went on to say there is some basis in halachah for women doing the things that Open Orthodoxy promotes.My point is that there's nothing to talk about until they first master the women's things, then they can maybe talk about men's things, i.e. Rashi's daughters laying tefillin, etc. I guarantee you that Rashi's daughters had completely mastered their woman's obligations before approaching their father about adding something more. Like WoW for instance, not one of those women comes to the Kotel with her hair completely covered.
If you want to say you disagree and why I will be happy to publish your comment, but I don't allow the comment section to be used to promote bad people and their heretical writings. I hope you understand.
Those guys are out of the fold. It's their choice. They have completely turned their backs on R' Soloveitchik who they claim as their mentor. R' Soloveitchik said NO to interfaith dialogue, marriage annulment, women wearing tefillin, women as rabbis. There isn't any gadol in their camp, neither living or dead. They are making it up as they go.
DeleteWhat he did do is allow some things that most other gadolim didn't but his students got confused and started to make heterim of their own to the point that what they are doing is unrecognizable as Judaism. It's college with tefillin on Tuesdays.
And what a shame because the traditional path for Jewish women is so full of wonder and opportunity and holiness. But they take their queues from America which has done its best to crush the very concepts of masculinity and femininity. America wants unisex workers. And OO takes its lead from that.
Yisrael K, that's what Mitzrayim did, too. They made women do men's jobs and made men do women's jobs. And it had horrible consequences.
DeleteThe irony is found in this blog. Here we have an informative and intelligent medium which as far as I can tell is run by a woman who espouses traditional roles. So here she is without the tefillin and the rabbinical title doing an incredible service for klal yisrael. It's a leadership position and shows that there are plenty of avenues for women to contribute without changing over tradition. I'll bet that Jewish women have been doing this sort of thing all the way back to Devorah and to Sarah. I doubt I would have made aliyah without this wonderful blog. And I'll bet if not for the traditional role practiced by the blog owner that the blog wouldn't be so good. For most of the OO types are in reality very selfish and not interested in doing anything more than making a name for themselves trashing tradition. But traditional Jewish women are tied into the mesorah and to Hashem and can do much more good and provide much more leadership.
DeletePS the Yated site has been unavailable since 8am Israeli time (1am NY est).
ReplyDeleteWhat do you expect me to do about it?
DeleteI was NOT advocating open orthodoxy. There is much I DO NOT AGREE with (tefillin, uncovered hair, noisy demo at the Kotel). The article was scholarly, with basis in halacha. I don't lump Rabbi Riskin together with Rabbi Weiss. If Rabbi Riskin was such a threat, the Rabbinate would not have renewed his Chief Rabbi of Efrat designation. Are you calling all of Efrat open orthodoxites? Are you calling one of the mothers, of the Three Boys who were kidnapped and killed, a follower of open orthodoxy? She knew according to halacha that she was permitted to say Kadish at his son's funeral (even though recent tradition prefers only men). Are you calling women who have studied and been tested to serve as halachic advisors to women at the Beis Din? I think you need to take a step back and truly analyze the above. As for the article, shame that you cannot read a scholarly article, it was not philosophy. Even after "Aher" went his own way, Rabbi Meir still studied with him! And Rabbi Meir's wife was Bruria, who was a respected Torah authority. I know it may be difficult to take blinders off and analyze something for its merits, but it should be done.
ReplyDeleteAre you comparing Riskin to elisha ben avuya, who was a Tana? Are you comparing us to Rebbe Meir who knew who to separate wheat from chafe?
DeleteI have no idea what the mothers of murdered boys has to do with this. Seems you are trying to pull on heart strings which is a classic move of the OO camp. There have been plenty of nonfrum mothers of murdered Jews in Israel. Do we take on their path in life because we feel bad for them?
The only person I find more despicable than Shlomo Riskin is Shimon Peres and that's saying something.
DeleteThe question to be asked about any leader is whether he is trying to help klal yisrael. Now tell me, at this point in history, with 90% of jews nonreligious, with ww3 at our doorstep, with iran pursuing the bomb, with europe and the rest of the nations at our throat do we need interfaith dialogue? This man is out of touch with reality. He thinks it's 1952 on the upper west side of manhattan. He never left there.
Deleteyisrael, elisha ben avuya became an apostate, but Rabbi Meir who was not supposed to, continued to learn with him.
Deleteabout Rebetzen Frenkel, she said Kaddish at her son's funeral. nowadays women are frowned upon when asked if they can say Kaddish at a gathering, however, the halacha allows her to do so. In some instances there is a difference between what has become mesorah that could really be chumra vs what the halacha actually is. Deborah was a Prophet, and there are many women in our history who had prominent roles. of course this is. not for the ordinary woman/homemaker. the Lubavitcher Rebbe allowed women to learn certain tractates of the Talmud. young unmarried women should not be looked down upon if they want to attend Talmud classes in a woman's educational facility. they end up getting married anyway, so men do not have to suffer ;-)
i agree totally about Shimon Peres.
everyone has their own opinion about a myriad of issues. Rabbi Berl Wein said the difference between unity and conformity is that unity is when differing opinions can exist together (and Jusaism grows) however with conformity everyone MUST conform to the same (static) opinion. we are in an aura of conformity right now (there is no tolerance for any other opinion). um we are talking about halacha here!
also, while im at it: why can there be several kosher hecksherim (chof k, OU, OK, star K, etc) in America. However, here in Israel there can only be one Kosher authority ? (yes we have R Rubin, and Chofetz Chaim, et al, but they all are under the 'one authority'. in America, they are not under one umbrella, they function under their own Rabbis, but here in Israel this is not allowed. did anyone ever think about this?
listen, some are lumping things together, i am not for WOW and i am not for R Weiss. i would not have R Riskin for my Rabbi. get that straight. honest open discussion can be had without mixing up the purpose of statements not intended. and Yisrael, with all due respect , there are 'dead' Rabbis (as you put it) that did defend the right of women to do some things frowned upon nowadays. if you want i can name them.
DeleteListen people - how you still don't get it is mind boggling. These erev rav rabbis are working in cahoots with the new agenda for this mingling of religions. There is no such thing as OO and all that claptrap. They are trying to confuse Jewish minds, who should have more sechel. This playing around with Torah laws and customs will only be their undoing. They cannot have yirat Shamayim which is first and foremost the most basic tenet for a Jew, as Shlomo Hamelech said, 'Hakol havel, chutz m'yirat Shamayim'. Forget these bozos and keep on fighting against their heresy, otherwise, those who fall for it will be sinning no less than they. BTW, Rashi's daughters did not put on tefiliim - another myth added to the many out there already. nili
ReplyDeleteRabbi Riskin discusses Jesus and messianism Him being the rabbi in Efrat now I understand why we have such problems in Judea and Israel in general regards to Christianity and Messianism.... His statement if Moshiach comes if it is his 1st or 2nd coming, what Torah did this guy study? As a woman with all this new this and new that, I know one thing Shabbat, Nidda, Hafrashat Challah, Zniut, if I can do my best in that and teach it to other woman I will not go wrong... I learn a lot and I know a lot of woman like my Rebbizin who has a lot of knowledge but she knows her place in live... We live in a live of confusion and it will get worse so it is important to fallow the Torah the way it is and not the way people want it to be... HaShem does not want geniuses but simple Jews with Emuna...
ReplyDeleteI would be careful about jumping to conclusions about me. I only posted that link to the Tablet article because the one you posted doesn't work. Why did you post the link if you didn't want the article sourced? That's what I was attempting to do. Avi Weiss is the author of the article you posted, Devash. Your derech eretz to some of the readers is deplorable. Are you even reading what we are saying in entirety before you snap at us?
ReplyDeleteNext time, please continue your comments in the same thread. It helps keep the confusion to a minimum. First of all, I drew no conclusions about you and did not accuse you of anything. I made a simple statement and I thought I did it nicely. Second, I also thought the article from Yated was written by someone at Yated and was quoting from the article which you suggested. If that's not the case then I apologize. It would have been helpful if you had included all that information with your original comment. If the rest of what you say is true, then it's time to turn off the comments. Discussion and debate is not at all the point or purpose of this blog. And furthermore, I do not have the kind of time required to tend to it properly. Personally, I'd rather not know what people think about what I've written. I don't want to be influenced by it either way.
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